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MADONNA KING
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Now, if your boss started work at six in the morning and finished at 11pm, and expected you to do the same, what would be your view? That's what Kevin Rudd is being accused of doing and, as you heard yesterday, other Prime Ministers worked similarly long hours. John Howard liked to go to Perth because it meant he could get an extra three hours in his day.
So what's normal for a politician? Let's go Inside Canberra this morning with Small Business Minister, Craig Emerson, and Opposition Attorney-General Senator George Brandis. Good morning, gentlemen.
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| CRAIG EMERSON: |
Hello, Madonna. |
| GEORGE BRANDIS: |
Good morning. |
| MADONNA KING: |
What time did you both start work today? |
| CRAIG EMERSON: |
Oh, I got in at half-past-six, read the papers, and played a game of touch footy. |
| MADONNA KING: |
Oh, well there you are, you're not going to be accused of doing too much work on that basis, Craig Emerson. |
| CRAIG EMERSON: |
Oh, well, then I was back preparing for your program and for the grilling that I always get, Madonna. |
| MADONNA KING: |
Yes. George Brandis. |
| CRAIG EMERSON: |
But I love it. |
| MADONNA KING: |
George Brandis, what time did you get into work? |
| GEORGE BRANDIS: |
I usually get in at about half-past-seven. |
| MADONNA KING: |
And what time is a normal time that you would knock off overnight? |
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GEORGE BRANDIS:
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Down here in Parliament it varies a little depending on the sitting hours. This is a particularly busy time for we senators because we have Senate Estimates committees for a fortnight and those sit from 9am till 11pm with lunch and dinner breaks, and that's a particularly wearing time so during the Senate Estimates fortnight we never leave the building before after 11pm.
During the ordinary sittings of the Senate proper, that's the case on Monday and Tuesday nights but not on Wednesday and Thursday nights. |
| MADONNA KING: |
Craig Emerson, much the same? |
| CRAIG EMERSON: |
Yes, typical - typical working day - it does vary a bit but not a lot - would be working from about 7.30 in the morning till 11 at night but I don't think we complain about that. |
| MADONNA KING: |
No, I'm not asking you to complain. |
| CRAIG EMERSON: |
Taxpayers - the taxpayers bring us in here… |
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MADONNA KING:
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Yes, no, but I'm not asking you to elaborate on that. What my point was, 7.30 till 11. Some taxpayers are criticising that. They're saying that politicians preach about a work/life balance and if our leaders are actually working from 7.30 in the morning till 11 at night, what kind of role models are they? |
| GEORGE BRANDIS: |
I think this is a very historic occasion, Madonna, because it must be the very first time I've ever heard any complaint that politicians work too hard. |
| CRAIG EMERSON: |
Yes, we're usually described as bludgers. |
| MADONNA KING: |
Is Kevin Rudd out of the ordinary or is that just the workload of a politician and John Howard was much the same? |
| CRAIG EMERSON: |
I think it's certainly the workload of a Prime Minister. |
| GEORGE BRANDIS: |
And of a senior minister. You know, last year I was a junior minister and it was the busiest time that I've ever had. So I just think that goes with the territory. |
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CRAIG EMERSON:
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It does, Madonna. I can confirm that in another way. I was an advisor to Bob Hawke for four years. Typically he would go home about one o'clock at night. He'd actually try to get a game of golf in. He'd be up about 5.30. He get maybe nine holes in and then he'd be in at work at seven, seven-thirty. |
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MADONNA KING: |
So why all these stories that Kevin Rudd is pushing the clock too far, he's going too far, he's got to ease back? |
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CRAIG EMERSON:
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Yes, I don't know. It is not at all unusual and this is across the political divide, for Prime Ministers to be working these sorts of hours. We've got a lot of work to do. We're a new government and we're all keen and full of energy but Kevin's hours are not really atypical for a Prime Minister. |
| MADONNA KING: |
Are our public servants lazy? |
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CRAIG EMERSON:
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Not at all. I think they work pretty hard too. This is one area where I can't really talk with authority about the previous 10 years but I can again, for the period up to about 1990, from '86 to '90, all my experience was they worked hard and extraordinary hours but with great energy and enthusiasm because people don't really get attracted to the public service for its high pay - it isn't badly paid but that's not the main reason. They actually do believe that they are serving the public and making the country a better place, so… |
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MADONNA KING:
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But your own boss, Craig Emerson, has given the impression that they need to work harder, that the last 10 years public servants have become a little bit policy lazy and there'll be more hard work to come. |
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CRAIG EMERSON:
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I think it was as much an enticement to the idea of, well, there's an exciting reform program here, you know, let's get into it, let's work hard but let's enjoy, let's get the satisfaction from doing that and seeing these changes implemented through the Parliament and elsewhere and making Australia a better country, building a modern economy for the 21st century. |
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GEORGE BRANDIS:
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I think - I don't think that's right, with respect, Craig. I mean, I think that airbrushes out of history a little of the remark - a few of the remarks Kevin Rudd made last week, in particular his press conference when he addressed this very issue and said, in a very sarcastic and condescending way, well, I've got news for you - talking about the public service - the work's going to get even - even harder.
Now, you know, I thought that was an extremely ungracious and distasteful thing to say to public servants. I agree with you, Craig, completely, about the quality - the very high quality and the professional dedication and public spiritedness of Australia's public servants and I think that taking cheap shots at public servants is a distasteful thing to do and both sides of politics have done it from time to time. But I can't imagine what effect it must have had on the morale of these very hardworking and public spirited people to hear the Prime Minister make a sarcastic go - have a sarcastic go at them, as he did last week. |
| MADONNA KING: |
Well… |
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CRAIG EMERSON: |
All the public servants that we deal with are full of enthusiasm, full of go, and that's a great thing for Australia and it's a great thing for a reforming government. |
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MADONNA KING:
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All right. Let's - speaking of public servants, it was revealed yesterday that the Bligh Government here has more than 370 journalists working for it. That's just, I think, in 10 departments. How important are journalists, public relations experts, to sell the Government's message? Craig Emerson? |
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CRAIG EMERSON:
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Oh, well, there is a role to communicate what the government is doing but these journalists also include people who are employed in departments who provide information about bad weather road closures, health warnings, that sort of thing. So I suppose the impression that would be created in people's minds is that they're all sitting there trying to work out clever angles for a minister. They actually work in departments and what was the figure you said, 370? Well, I'd take it down to 369 because I took one of their journalists. He's now working for me, a boy from Cootamundra. |
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MADONNA KING:
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I think he might have been replaced just quietly.
But, George Brandis, did that figure surprise you? |
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GEORGE BRANDIS:
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It astonished me. I mean, let's put this in context. Here we are making this broadcast from the parliamentary press gallery in Canberra. Now, here in the parliamentary press gallery, every media organisation in the country is represented and they cover the national parliament. The parliamentary press gallery has about 200 or so accredited journalists.
The Howard government, where there were about 550 or so ministerial staff, about 10, perhaps, not more than 15 per cent of those, if that, were journalists. There would be no major newspaper in Australia which would employ 370 journalists. I just can't believe that a state government would be able to find enough for 370 journalists to do. |
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CRAIG EMERSON:
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The point that George is deliberately overlooking is, as you said, these are in departments, no doubt in ministerial offices too, and people in departments working for the CSIRO, for the - all the statutory authorities, they are, too, called journalists, so if you put them all together you get a large number but I just want to get rid of the perception that these are all spin doctors sitting in ministerial offices. |
| GEORGE BRANDIS: |
Well, I think they are. |
| CRAIG EMERSON: |
They're people providing public information that is very important to safety and health. |
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MADONNA KING:
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All right, we're going to leave that issue there, George Brandis saying it's spin doctoring, Craig Emerson saying it's not, and perhaps at home you have a view on that and want to let me know this morning. If so, please do.
Gossip around politicians happens all the time but this one this morning, where Kevin Rudd allegedly had a hotdog at the football last month and then there were claims he'd been felled by a minor heart attack, that the stadium comes out and says, look, we don't sell hotdogs, someone's got their story wrong, the Prime Minister's office this morning saying it wasn't a hotdog, it was an hors d'oeuvre. Has he maligned the mighty Dagwood Dog? |
| GEORGE BRANDIS: |
It just goes to show what a man of the people Kevin Rudd is, that if he goes to the footy to watch the Broncos play the West Tigers he has hors d'oeuvres. |
| MADONNA KING: |
Now, George Brandis, have you ever had a Dagwood Dog? |
| GEORGE BRANDIS: |
Yes, I have actually. |
| MADONNA KING: |
Okay. Craig Emerson? |
| GEORGE BRANDIS: |
They're not very good… |
| CRAIG EMERSON: |
They're not - I love 'em, I love 'em but… |
| GEORGE BRANDIS: |
They're not very good for you but I confess that having had one at the Ekka and places like that… |
| CRAIG EMERSON: |
Tomato - tomato sauce, a deep battered savloy, I mean, they are great, actually, but I try not to eat too many of them. |
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GEORGE BRANDIS:
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Let's not try and sort of outdo each other in who's the biggest man of the people by eating Dagwood Dogs. I mean, there is a more serious point to be made here and I don't want to say anything about the Prime Minister's health, I think that's not a matter that's a proper subject of political controversy but what I think does come out of this story is the spin. I mean, the line was put out by the Prime Minister's office, oh, he had a Dagwood Dog, and then it's learned that that wouldn't have been possible because that particular food item wasn't sold at the venue.
Now, look, it might be a trivial example but there's a pattern of conduct here, whether it's Scores nightclub, whether it's the false dawns Anzac Day sunrise service, whether it's the dinners with Brian Burke, now it's this Dagwood Dog affair, if you can dignify it… |
| MADONNA KING: |
The… |
| CRAIG EMERSON: |
Are you following this conspiracy, Madonna? |
| GEORGE BRANDIS: |
No, no, it's not a conspiracy. |
| CRAIG EMERSON: |
They're all linked. Everything's linked to everything else. |
| GEORGE BRANDIS: |
It's not a conspiracy but I tell you what it is, Craig. |
| CRAIG EMERSON: |
[Laughs] |
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GEORGE BRANDIS:
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It is a pattern of conduct. If you want to work out what somebody is like and, in particular, if you work out how credible they are, you look for patterns of conduct in their behaviour and there is a very, very distinct pattern of conduct in Kevin Rudd's behaviour to try and get out of or explain away slightly embarrassing or inconsistent episodes with the convenient small lie. |
| CRAIG EMERSON: |
Oh, come on. |
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MADONNA KING:
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All right, well, look, let's move on from that or we'll be concentrating too much on the Dagwood Dog-gate which no doubt it will be called henceforth, or the Dagwood Dog Affair. We've only got a few minutes and I want to touch on a couple of issues, including the US election where it looks like Barack Obama is within 10 votes of creating US history. George Brandis, you follow this very closely. What's going to happen? |
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GEORGE BRANDIS:
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I do. Well, Fox News, the American channel, was reporting just before we came on air that Senator Obama had, in fact, reached and, in fact, was now five votes beyond the majority of all delegates, that is the elected delegates and the so-called super delegates. |
| MADONNA KING: |
Either way, he's either got it or he's about to. |
| GEORGE BRANDIS: |
Correct. |
| MADONNA KING: |
Hillary Clinton is telling her colleagues she's open to being a vice-presidential nominee, on Obama's ticket. Would Barack Obama cop that? |
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GEORGE BRANDIS:
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Well, I think this is a very difficult choice for Senator Obama because on the one hand, you know, he - it seems quite a neat fit because she does well in the demographics that he doesn't do well in. She does better with working class whites, she does better with Hispanics and she does better with older Americans whereas he does better with blacks, with better educated whites and with younger Americans.
So it would seem at one level a neat fit. On the other hand, I think Senator Obama would have severe misgivings about having Hillary Clinton and - as his vice president with the spouse she brings along, it would be a little hard to run your own White House if you had Bill Clinton as… |
| MADONNA KING: |
Looking over your shoulder. |
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GEORGE BRANDIS:
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Looking over your shoulder and the other thing, as you know, Madonna, I've been predicting that Barack Obama would be the next President of the United States since before the beginning of this year. One of the reasons I think that is because I believe that he will energise the Democratic Party base more than John McCain will energise the Republican Party base and, in a system where there is no compulsory voting that, I think, will make all the difference.
Now, if Hillary Clinton is on the ticket, she is such a hate figure to Republicans in a way that Obama is not that that might have the effect of energising the Republican base which could cost him. |
| MADONNA KING: |
Craig Emerson, your views? |
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CRAIG EMERSON:
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Well, I think it's good that it's moving towards a settlement because enormous resources and energy are being devoted to this contest and have been for a very long time so, from the Democratic Party's point of view there'd be some sense of relief that they could then turn their resources and efforts to the contest for the actual presidency. |
| MADONNA KING: |
Yes. |
| CRAIG EMERSON: |
But, look, George is our resident expert on Inside Canberra on… |
| MADONNA KING: |
Yes… |
| CRAIG EMERSON: |
…the intricacies so… |
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GEORGE BRANDIS:
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I don't - no, I don't pretend to be an expert, it's just an interest of mine but I think we should also not lose the opportunity to say, very seriously now, what an historic moment in American history and indeed the history of the modern world. This is that here is a 46-year-old man, he has been a Senator for three-and-a-half years and yet he is about to become or has just become the Democratic Party's nominee for President of the United States and he's an African American. Now, it just goes to show how far America has come. |
| CRAIG EMERSON: |
Yes. |
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MADONNA KING:
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Certainly has and, as you say, an historic day. A couple of final things, just briefly. George Brandis, the Liberal Party, the National Party in Queensland, one moment they're merging, the next moment they're not, do you think the aim of Mal Brough is to merge the two parties in Queensland? |
| GEORGE BRANDIS: |
I think Mal Brough's election on the weekend was a great moment for the Liberal Party and I say that with all due respect to the person he beat, who is a good man but… |
| MADONNA KING: |
That's not my question. |
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GEORGE BRANDIS:
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Mal Brough, I think has - well, I'll come to your question but Mal Brough has become one of the great iconic figures of non-Labor politics, not just in Queensland and in Australia, and his willingness to re-engage I think is tremendous. Now, what Mal wants to do is he wants to steer the Liberal Party into a position where we and the National Party, in whatever structure it may be, present the most effective alternative both to the state Labor government with its 380 spin doctors, and the federal Labor government. |
| MADONNA KING: |
Yes, but this is… |
| CRAIG EMERSON: |
Well, Madonna, could I just… |
| MADONNA KING: |
Hold on, Craig Emerson, if that's okay. |
| CRAIG EMERSON: |
Yes, sure. |
| MADONNA KING: |
That's all just all rhetoric, George Brandis. Should you have the number one spot on the Senate ticket? |
| CRAIG EMERSON: |
He had it last week. Slipped from his grasp. |
| GEORGE BRANDIS: |
That's not a matter for me. |
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CRAIG EMERSON:
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Now, Madonna, while they're talking about amalgamations in Queensland, Warren Truss, the head of the Nationals here in Canberra, and the Member for Wide Bay in Queensland, said look, one option is for us to split away from the Coalition in Canberra so I don't know whether they're talking about coming together or splitting apart but the longer they talk the worse it is, I think, for Coalition politics. |
| GEORGE BRANDIS: |
Well, I think what we need to be doing at all times is, as an opposition, drawing attention to the many, many shortcomings… |
| MADONNA KING: |
Yes, I know but… |
| GEORGE BRANDIS: |
…of the federal Labor Party. |
| MADONNA KING: |
But that's rhetoric, that wasn't the question. |
| GEORGE BRANDIS: |
No, it's not. It's not rhetoric. I mean, that's what we ought to be doing. |
| CRAIG EMERSON: |
Well, it's very hard to get that across, George, when all you're doing is talking about yourselves. |
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MADONNA KING:
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All right, and I think we might leave that there, with Craig Emerson having the final say. I know George Brandis had the final say on several other issues this morning but one final thing before we go. I just want you to hear what I did yesterday. It will just take a couple of seconds. |
| RECORDING: |
The Tuna Bypass still - Tugun. The Tuna Bypass. |
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MADONNA KING:
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There you are, yesterday on air I was having a great time talking about the Tuna Bypass and, as you know, sometimes your tongue runs away and you can get caught up. I know I'm in good company, even this week. State Education Minister Rod Welford called Mandarin, the language spoken by our Prime Minister, Mandarine, last night.
And the Victorian Liberal backbencher, Jason Wood, talked nine times, I think, the other night, about orgasms not organisms.
[Laughter] |
| MADONNA KING: |
Have either of you got one you want to own up to? |
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CRAIG EMERSON:
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Oh, look, it was actually on Lateline. Not so much words but the fact that I was doing this very serious interview at a very serious time for the Labor Opposition and my mobile phone went off. Tony Jones said: are you going to get that call? I thought I'd fumbled and turned it off but people who were being very mischievous from my side of politics were watching on TV and rang it again.
[Laughter] |
| CRAIG EMERSON: |
It went off a second time and Tony said I think you'd better take that call. That was slightly embarrassing. |
| GEORGE BRANDIS: |
With friends like those, Craig. |
| CRAIG EMERSON: |
Yes, exactly. |
| MADONNA KING: |
And, George Brandis, yours? |
| GEORGE BRANDIS: |
Well, look, I'm sure there have been many. I can't particularly identify one but I'm sure there have been many. |
| MADONNA KING: |
Okay, Craig Emerson… |
| CRAIG EMERSON: |
And, Madonna, that - Madonna, that road would bypass a fair few tunas, so it's not such a bad gaffe. |
| MADONNA KING: |
And, Craig Emerson, I think Senator George Brandis should let us know what one of his gaffes are and that might be your homework, to find one for him in the next week. |
| CRAIG EMERSON: |
I'll do nothing else. |
| GEORGE BRANDIS: |
I'm sure it won't be a very hard task. |
| MADONNA KING: |
Gentlemen, appreciate your time. Thank you. |
| GEORGE BRANDIS: |
Thank you. |
| CRAIG EMERSON: |
Okay, bye bye, Madonna. |
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MADONNA KING:
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Senator George Brandis, the Opposition Attorney-General, and Dr Craig Emerson, the Small Business Minister in the Rudd Government will be back Inside Canberra at the same time next week. |